Why Podcasting Is Like Dating: Finding The Right Match For Your Brand | Spencer Carpenter

There's so many people that say everyone's got a podcast now. It seems saturated. Okay, well, are books no longer coming out? Are you no longer making Instagram profiles or linked? I mean, it's just one more thing, but it's something that I think is way more valuable than a lot of the rest. This is right about now with Ryan Alfred, a Radcast Network production. We are the number one business show on the planet with over 1 million downloads a month. Taking the BS out of business for over six years and over 400 episodes. You ready to start snapping next and cash and checks? Well, it starts right about now. Right about now. What's up guys? Welcome to right about now. Hey, we're taking the BS out of business, baby. One step at a time. You know, we like podcasts around here. It might be self-serving a bit, but we believe in them. We love them. So we want to bring you, you know, guests that talk about the medium. There's a lot of things that go into podcasting and there's a lot of things behind the scenes that if you don't know, there's things about the power of podcasting, booking guests, the influence that it can have, and really where the state of the medium is. And I'm pumped today because we've got Spencer, Carpenter. He is the founder of outlier audio and hey, I've just learned a serial entrepreneur. What's up, Spencer? Hey, thanks so much for having me. Hey, I'm glad you could make it in to G Vegas. Yeah, here on vacation, figured I'd stop on in. I know. Hey, you're the new studio. You know, like we got the lighting effects and you know, you get the gold shining on you. Yeah, we got the belt. Yes, I'll let you wear that if you want. We'll let you get it on you. Oh, man, outlier audio, Spencer, podcast booking agent. I mean, that's really at the core of what you do. Yep. And I will go down that path, but talk to let's set the table for our audience and you know, obviously everyone has a journey. Sure. I think you have a pretty fascinating one in the music business, the way as we talked about, but let's set the table for everyone about sort of your entrepreneurial path and then where we are today. Yeah, so I saw a booking concert when I was 15 and then, you know, kind of progressed into doing multi-day music conferences and festivals and I ran some small record labels into tour booking and arts management and stuff like that, but pretty much all along the way, I was always dealing on either side of talent representation. And in 2017, when I found podcasts, I was listening to these people giving away a key say kingdom to all kinds of things, how to make money, how to buy real estate and investing. And I just assumed if you're on a podcast, you were like, Mark Cuban, Grand Cardone, Richard Brent's celebrity style entrepreneurs. And then I found out that for lack of a better term, they were Joe Schmell investor, they were Joe Schmell entrepreneur, but they were really good at what they did. And it just got me thinking about how for so many people, their title is just like, their job is just their title to everyone around them and it's never really considered that they're talented at what they do. They've got to skill and enact for it, except within their circles. And so I just figured there was probably no one supporting them like that. And so when unfortunately my boss passed away from COVID on March 9, 2020 and then three days later, the whole music industry got shut down. And so stuck in quarantine, I was like everyone else is stuck to not just artists. You can't go speak at conferences, you can't do meetups, you can't go to expose. And podcasts were a place where everyone could like perform while stuck at home. And so I just started reaching out to people and saying, do you want to get bugged on some shows while you're stuck at home? And I'll coordinate it for you. I'll build your pitch, I'll build like what your topics are, what's unique. And it just kind of snowballed from there. What I think about you talking it back to like the booking with bands and things like that, like it's a relationship game, isn't it? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's like I get the sense from you as being out of a people person, you know, like I don't know, it never made a stranger. You know, like know how to warm up to people now to get them to trust you, like you all those things, like there's a salesmanship to it. But you know, the old saying of it's not what you know, it's who you know. Yeah. It's got to be true for you. Oh, yeah. I mean, when I have clients that do in-person interviews, I fly out on my own dime to get FaceTime with the team. I want to be able to re-utilize those relationships. And it's definitely a relationship game. And that's part of the reason why publicists were kind of slow to jump on this is that they've already got so many relationships to manage. And so then when you throw this medium out there that's got hundreds of thousands of active shows, but let's just say business, thousands of shows, it's a lot of relationships to manage when you've already got tons of other things to do. Yeah. How do you think the medium is being viewed, you know, at that level, the publicists and the entertainment level or the news level like, I mean, it seems like the credibility is just continuing to rise. Yeah. I mean, there's a few different components like the money that companies are throwing to produce new shows is going down a little bit. Yeah. But there's not done producing shows. And you know, there's so many people that say, uh, everyone's got a podcast now. It seems saturated. Okay, well, are books no longer coming out? Yeah. Are you no longer making Instagram profiles or linked? I mean, it's just one more thing, but it's something that I think is way more valuable than a lot of the rest. And really what they're saying no to is the commitment. And I just think that you know, it used to be if you were a published author, that was a really big deal. And then self-publishing became a little more viable. So there were more published authors. They still bragged about it. Yeah. It didn't take a way from their credibility. You keynote speak one time. You're still a keynote speaker. And so I think that being the host of a show is going to get that same level of respect at a certain point if if it's not already there. Or being a frequent guest. I mean, that's the whole idea is I pitched myself to your team, but your team said yes. You're validating me to the audience. And so there's just a lot of factors there, but it's it's not going away in my opinion. Yeah. I don't think so either. I'll give a staff. And if you've listened to a few recent show, you've heard me say it. 18 to 34 year olds, listen and watch podcasts more than television now. Yep. Wrap your head around that. So you know, and so when you do the math, you can kind of follow that down. What they're doing now is you know, 18 year olds doing now, they're going to continue to do. It's going to evolve. You know, like that genie isn't going back in the bottle. No, like they're not going to say there might be new mediums that come out. And they might listen to different shows. Yes. But they're being raised and brought up in media around as podcasting being a top source of content entertainment education. Yep. And so I think you'll with that in mind, you're only going to see that because those 18 to 34 year olds were coming to parents, the fathers, the leaders of tomorrow, raising the the earlier generations behind them. And so I think you're going to see this as a medium. I think it might evolve. And I think we're seeing that transition from audio to video. Yeah. And the interplay. Yep. But as a whole, though, I feel like we're just on, I don't know, maybe approaching the top of the curve, but I still think we're rising up the bell curve. Well, and it combines a few different things. It takes the on-demand functionality of something like Spotify with the entertainment value of Howard Stern with the education of audio books. I started listening to podcasts because I drove a lot and I was like, I should be utilizing my time a little bit better. I'm going to audio books. Dude, I tried reading and listening to thinking bro rich like six times. And it is such a boring read and listen. No matter how I don't care how many people tell me it changed their lives and how impactful it is still boring. And I never finished it. It's so when I got to like a real estate podcast where someone in 60 minutes could teach me how they went from negative money in their bank account to certified millionaire or something, I'm like, cool, let's do it. Let's listen. And I can listen whenever I want. I can hear their backstory. I can hear their personality. Even if you're just listening, you can hear when someone's smiling or laughing or whatever. And it's a really good way of building trust, credibility, rapport, all of those things. And I think if you're a person of leadership, person in, you know, a field where you need to be an authority, your scene is authority, which is coming to about everything, a brand of company. I don't know a reason why you wouldn't be doing podcasting at least on some level. Like I think what does it have? Yeah. That's where I think people get really hung up in their shorts and like in their mind of like the commitment. Because I think, okay, I have to do it forever. I'm signing up forever. And I'm signing up for four episodes a week for three years or something. And they just completely get analysis paralysis, you know, paralysis from analysis of how much they have to commit. Right. Do 10 episodes series. 10 commit to six months. Yeah. And the content and the repurposing and the what you can learn from that experience. And if done right, has such compounding impact that I think people who just get too caught up in thinking they have to bite the whole element at the same time. Well, and consider like I'm not a marketer. I'm not like an SEO expert or anything like that. But when I have to look someone up and all I can find is all the great things they wrote about themselves on their website and their LinkedIn or whatever, it's not helpful. And so you don't even have to be a thought leader. Just be someone that's in a competitive space. You're another business consultant. You're an attorney, financial planner, real estate agent. If these people are dumping money into billboards to stand out, when you could just show people your personality and why you're actually passionate about what you do through audio and video. And if you're like me, I don't really want to be a content creator. So coming on your show where you're feeding me the conversation, you're producing it, I just get to use it at the end. Yeah. It's just win-win-win all around. Yeah. What I don't understand is if you're being a person and everyone sort of cringes is at the personal brand. Yeah. I get it. I understand. I cringe myself sometimes. You know, like, but let's call what is your your the amplification of your authority. Yeah. Is really what we're talking about. Right. Why you wouldn't we have these mediums today. We're 10, 15 years ago with, you know, social networks sort of starting to get traction, other things like that, but podcasting very nascent. And the only way to get amplification would be, okay, I'm on the news every day. I want TV. I'm a superstar. I'm a celebrity. We now have the ability to create our own news, create our own story and to create an aura around ourselves as being a specialist or known for X. Right. And to not leverage what that can do is mind-boggling to me. Yep. Well, and so many people think, how am I going to get to be the biggest podcasting or how am I going to get a thousand listeners? If you're a service-based business, just local to your community, how many customers do you really need for your entire year to be booked out? You don't need thousands. You need a few hundred. Being in music, I did concerts for 15 years. Do you know how many of them had over 250 people at them? 10%. So, well, you've got a big brand. But if I were to tell people today, I am doing a conference in six months. Do you know how many tickets I'd be able to sell? Not 250. It takes a lot of time. So, when someone is like, man, my podcast only has 36 listeners this week. I'm like, cool, you outperform my in-person real estate meetup that I've only ever, you know, I normally have 20 people at. You're outperforming most bands live audience at your local venue, your local bands, whatever. I mean, it's hard when you're trying to keep up with the Joneses. But if you can have 50 of the right person listening to your podcast every week, super valuable. To your point, try it for six months. If you're really determining that it's not a good use of your time or resources, don't do it anymore. You can stop. You can be brand. You can change the name, whatever you want. I'd other see people commit to, I'm going to do a 10-part series on X for Y, then the whole pod fade of starting three episodes and then not making it. You know, like, play it out 10, you know, play it out 15. And then if it works great, but the whole, I don't know, a fire aim ready. That's how free to every business I've had is started. It's like, it look, everything has to be mapped out. But like, I think that's where people like hit the wall as they haven't thought through exactly, you know, what they're trying to accomplish. You know, have a plan. Hope is not a strategy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I launched a podcast last week called Questions with a Podcast Booking Agent. And it wasn't a plan. I asked my LinkedIn community. I was just dying for content. I was like sick of trying to come up with posts every week. And I asked people, what do you want to learn from a podcast booking agent? I got like 10 people answering. I then decided I want to type out all the responses. So I made videos. They're all under two minutes. And I turned my girlfriend, who's my podcaster, because we also launch podcasts for people around them. I turned to her and I'm like, let's just put this audio as a podcast too. And I don't, I'm not expecting it to like blow up, but it's out there now. It's good for the SEO. It's good for the content. We hit number 46 on how to. And now forever, I can say I'm a top 50 podcaster. If I wanted to be like that, I'm not going to do that. But you can. I'm a market room. It's, yeah. And it was just like, you know, it was just fun. And we'll just keep putting it out. And if it gets listeners, great. But if not, like the content's made. I'm putting out YouTube shorts, too. I'm not trying to grow YouTube. But the content is there. And I've met people that are like, yeah, I do a weekly webinar. I'm like, so why don't you rip the audio and put it as a podcast too? You don't have to market it if you don't want, but just put it out there. Yeah, it doesn't hurt. Yeah, exactly. Talk about the podcast booking game. Sure. You know, obviously getting people on shows, getting guests, four shows. There's kind of a two way street there. But I don't know. Most of nuts and bolts of kind of what you do. Yeah. So because I kind of done a lot of things, I've always been like intrigued on how people made money. And you know, there's someone out there that's the number one ice chest producer for 7 11s on the East Coast. And it's like super not sexy, but they're a millionaire. I'm like, cool, I want to learn more about that. And so I think I've been able to bring that to when I'm developing topics for clients, because when I have a client, I want to learn more about what they do and how they became successful. And so, you know, depending on the show, maybe the information is going to be surface level, but I can prod them a little bit and ask the questions that I want answered, because I believe that's probably what other people want to hear too. And it's going to be more than I can talk about marketing, I can talk about sales, I can talk about entrepreneurship, whatever. It's got to be more indebted than that. You have to be able to provide some value that the person hasn't heard. And that's not always reinventing the wheels. Sometimes it's repackaging it in a new way. Bob Proctor, Jim Roan, Tony Robbins, Zig Ziglar, a lot of them say the same things, but they say differently. They use different analogies that resonate with someone they like oranges instead of apples. And so because of that, I think most people can be on podcasts, but you still have to be able to figure out what's your unique value proposition, what's the story that's going to be sold if maybe that's more of the angle. And so I kind of worked through people and figured out what that is. And then I'll tell you before the show, like I work with Brandon Novak from Jack Asson, Viva LaBam, I love being able to put him on entrepreneurship shows because he would never thought about it. They would never thought to invite him and create a really cool, unique experience for people. Yeah, that brings back a lot of memories. I'm sorry for a lot of, and he's gotten no shame. None at all. Yeah. Yeah. What's the biggest impact you've seen maybe with whether expected or unexpected of having some of your clients get on a podcast tour, like going and getting on shows and maybe they weren't already a no name, but like head credibility or whatever, like what's the impact that you've seen? The biggest monetary benefit I've seen from one client is he went on a show and he's an oil and gas exploration. I put him on like kind of a just an alternative investing podcast. They were more real estate guys. And they said, we're not putting your interview out until you do a deal with us because we want to do a deal. And so he had to put up like 15 the down payment for I think, but they funded like the acquisition of like an eight million dollar oil and gas production deal. And no one like he's just known in his circles like no press release one out or anything like that, but he just he just got like his equity in an eight million dollar deal just by going on that podcast and then he wasn't trying to solicit them. Yeah. It was just a show, you know. But you know, other people have had big contributions to like their charities. Some people get deals. Some people get partners. I mean, it's it's one of those things that's hard to quantify until someone comes to you and says, I heard you on the show now I'm reaching out. But it's it's there's tons. There's just tons of opportunity. I remember reading someone's on like LinkedIn saying that she went on a show to talk about one business, but she did a different type of consulting and the host hired her for that other type of consulting, which turned into like 200 grand worth of work over the last two years. And that wasn't even what the interview was about, you know. Yeah. It's like there's a compounding effect from it. It's it's over time. And you just never know who's listening or what what connections will be made. And it's like, obviously, I mean, obviously if you've got a book coming out, like there's some obvious things like if you're you've got a book release or you've got some kind of clear offer or new thing you're doing and you've got credibility and something and you're wanting to amplify that. Okay. It's a good part of the media mix to get on there. But then there's just sort of this. I tell people like the amount like I've been doing our show for six years. And there's the things that you would think are obvious that that have happened and like leads for the agency and sponsors and things like that. But then there's just the the random phone call in some month or DM or whatever that's like, Hey, we heard you on this and they'll quote like a show I was on like four years ago. Yeah. And it's like, I'm like, yeah, so that's obvious or something that's on your mind. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, you know, I just I'm doing this and there could be an opportunity like to obscure investment or connect to you just the connective tissue that it can bring in opportunities or just hard to even like put a number on. Well, that's that's from a marketing side. What's really cool is you run an ad budget on Instagram Facebook. When it's done, it's done podcasts continue to grow as long as the show stays active. Yeah. It continues to grow and when that show gets a really invested listener, they run out of new episodes. They go back and listen to the old ones. That's right. And so there's tons of people that say like, I get leads from something I did three years ago and I forgot about that show until someone brought it back up, you know. But it's also how much money goes into a 30 second ad on the Super Bowl? You know that number. Yeah. 5, 10 million. Yeah. We're going to be doing this. How long is it going to be 60 minutes? Yeah. Brands can't even pay for that if they wanted to. No. And like you get it with your listeners every single week. Exactly. It's just it's just why. And I mean, I know this isn't like a normal interview for the listeners, but I know that like this is we can nerd out about this because we both are in space. And this is something that we know most people don't know anything about. No. And businesses need to be hearing it though. Yeah. And entrepreneurs and like, whether wherever you are on that curve, if you haven't gotten your heads around this, you need to. And maybe you don't want to start a podcast. You're not, that's fine. But just remember, if you get paid to do anything, you've got a skill set that the average person doesn't know anything about. And that's valuable. You might not be able to go get on the biggest show talking about the most basic level of SEO. But you can go find a podcast that's only done 20 episodes in marketing or business hasn't covered your skill set yet. Pitch yourself. They're going to say yes because they've only there. No one's banging down their door to get on their show yet. And you just got free content and SEO that the host paid for. That's right. Because the distribution is out there. And like you mentioned, it's evergreen. It's where the last really love it or hate it. The stuff on the internet. It lasts forever. And it's funny because I'll see, you know, I will do the SEO stuff for my show in my name and things like that because I tell people all the time, like if you don't do personal influence amplification, I'm trying not to say personal brain. Spencer, I'm trying really hard. But then you're allowing Google or someone else to tell your story for you. Oh, because you're allowing when everyone's Google is everybody now. Right. Everyone searches for you. Like if you're going to have a relationship with them, they're looking you up on social media. They're looking you up on Google, they're looking you up on LinkedIn, X, whatever it is. They're if depending on how that connects with me, May, if it's business, if it's personal, whatever, they're looking you up. And when you don't commit to authority building, you're allowing Google to tell this story for you. Because if you Google my name, I own the first three pages. And there's a really popular lawyer in Canada, his name's Ryan Alford. There's now an African American pro golfer named Ryan Alford, who's actually has some pretty good rounds lately. He started to creep up into there. But I was the first repaid. So it's I control the story. Not because there's anything bad. No, but I want to put out my best attributes and what I have to offer the world versus just Russian roulette. Hope it's good. Well, Brandon Turner from Bigger pockets is competing against a pro skateboard named Brandon Turner. Yeah. And so it was funny. Like when I had Brandon Novak on his show, Brandon Turner was like, I'm sorry, our Brandon Novak was like, I'm going to be on Brandon Turner. That's like my best friend. Like what he doesn't have a podcast. And then I had to that's something that he was, you know, Brandon Turner from Bigger pockets was competing with for a while. He had to build his brand so that he came up before the pro skateboard. Yes. And so by going on shows and the distribution you get, because even to this day, it's not the biggest podcast that I don't I'm not going to service to it because I don't remember the name, but it's still on like it's the bottom, but it's on the first page. I would on it like five years ago. And to this day, it stays on the out of what he's does. It shows not that big. But somehow he stays on my first page of results. Like I've been on some big shows and like they don't write to where this one is. I don't know. God does great SEO, I guess. It's funny, but it lasts and it's out there and it's evergreen and you don't know the volume of impressions it's getting and the impact that it can have on people. And if nothing else, you know, I think in a way, we all crave to leave our mark on the world and to share our talents. And there's no better way to do that than to share it on medium. This mediums that get shared and distributed. Well, that I heard someone talk about that too was they like podcasting because it's like they're they're like, you know, it could be part of their legacy. I mean, yeah. And you know, you could be related to a famous author that died before you were born. All you've got is the books they written they wrote, which was not their raw authentic thoughts. It was revisions and revisions and revisions and this is why I think it's going to do the best, but like your great grandkids are going to be able to see hours of video of you if they want. And yes, you know, really get to know who you are. And for them, the important thing isn't going to be your insight on marketing or sales or business unless they become an entrepreneur themselves. But it's going to be the nuggets you put out there about how to be a good person. Take care of your family. And they're like, oh, I see he did this with my dad. You know, and that's that's just it's kind of a really undervalued under recognized thing that in 50 years, everyone's going to see it. Yeah. Right now, it's just this piece of medium that drive business or build your brand or whatever it might be. Exactly. Talking with Spencer Carpenter, founder of Outlier Audio, podcast booking, extraordinary. Who's the average person that comes to you these days, Spencer? Like, what's that what's that kind of profile of the person that that comes to you and what they're looking for? Yeah, so I work. I have a wide variety of people like half my clientele is in the real estate space just because I've kind of become the guy there. But my clientele beyond that really varies. I mean, I mentioned I were a brand-of-no-vac, but also James Wilkes from the UFC and the executive producer of Game Changers on Netflix. And then Cameron Harald, who's the author of vivid vision and Avery Carl, who is she built the number one EXP brokerage in the world and is also like a short-term rental guru expert, not guru. But then I have someone that's never done a podcast and are like, I need some SEO. I'm trying to build my brand. I'm trying to get some investors. I just need some content. I mean, I really do have a wide range of people that are different parts of their career. But the ideal is always who are the high performers I can work with. I've been really lucky in that because not many people do what I do. I get to work with a lot of people. I considered mentors a year before I even started this. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm trying to think of big real estate people. I mean, Toriko Musa, you know, I had him on. Yeah. He's an interesting guy. He's smart to tell. He's in Jamil. Yeah. He's in Jamil. He's awesome. I work with a bunch of like the bigger pockets authors. Yeah. Like, like half a dozen of their authors. Patent Jamil are two really good guys. Oh, yeah. Like some people own these in the business. And not Toriko's too. He's because I was so cow guy. I don't know. Paces over there all over there. But in California, but Patent and Jamil had a little war down the earth. I don't know. But you still don't ever know you're going to meet in this game that the real, it's that compounding relationship stuff. You know, it's just like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but like, you know, like, literally like it. It's, uh, it's just crazy how it this sort of, you get in this industry and you start talking to people and then who you meet and who they know. And I don't know. It can just really go leap some bounds. Pretty much every time I've had like an unsolicited call come in, aware like in my calendar link, it's like, you know, put your website or whatever. Yeah. Every time I've looked at their website and been like, this is going to be a waste. It's just not going to be a fit. I found out they were inquiring about something different. Like, uh, I'm watching this new brand. I just, I, that's the website I have right now. So that's what I gave you. But I'm actually watching this other brand that is a fit. It almost every single time. Um, there have been people that are like, they're, they gave me links to like their music or something like, I don't work with musicians because I don't want to take their money. And then I found out she's actually like a systems coach. And that's what she's launching soon. And so like, dude, you just don't know. Who's, uh, who's maybe like one of the biggest names? Are you mentioned some of your clients and stuff like that? But like as far as booking or whatever, you can do some name dropping here if you want to. Like, you know, and I don't want you to talk shit about anybody. But like, is there anybody like surprised like big names that surprised you for the good or the bad? Uh, so cool shows. I mean, I was in Mark Manson studio last month with a client. And like, his writing was really important for me, just in developing like emotional intelligence. And like, you know, just, just in my early 20s. That's like been the coolest for sure. Um, terms of like investing podcasts other than Ramsey, who mainly just interviews his friends from what I've been told. Um, I've had people on the top four investing podcasts in the US. And that's all been cool. But most of the people I'd say that are at that level, they are who they are. It's the person that invest that's like still climbing that you get there. And you're like, this is new. You are. And that's okay. Like you're doing what you need to do. But, um, I'm like, you, you just had two videographers set up for when my client walked in for you to say hi, see a B roll. And it's just, it's kind of weird. You know, and I don't blame anybody. It's just, it's just like weird. Yeah. Um, but, you know, they're still cool people. They're successful for a reason. You know, for better or worse, either they're a good guy or they're just out for themselves. I don't know. But, um, what's the trick to getting booked on shows? Not the trick, but like what what's the value for people, you know, that might be, uh, hey, they want to hire outlier, outlier audio at some point, but they're on the, you know, they're doing it for themselves now. Like, unique value proposition, um, a story and follow up. Half of my interviews are booked because I followed up. And we were talking about this before we started. Like you don't know what's going on the, on the other end. The longest it took me to get someone on, like I, these two clients, they really wanted to be on like Pat Flynn's podcast. They had learned from his courses. It was really important to them. Pat Sonoma. From the time I got the first response from his assistant to the time it was on the calendar. 365 days to the day. And then it didn't happen for another three months. And then thing come out for another three months after that. So you're gonna follow up. It was like 90, 80 emails at the end. And it was, it was just like didn't wind up with like his schedule, what they were doing at the time. Um, but it came back to they had a good value proposition. You know, again, you're not always reinventing the wheel, but you're putting your spin on it. It's been, um, and then a story like if maybe you don't have anything that's like super unique and what you're doing your business, but your story lends to why you're passionate about it. And so especially now, I think, um, with things like 9 11 or the financial crisis or COVID or any of these things, like there have been a lot of events in the last 25 years. I could really influence someone's life and put passion behind what they do now. And being able to put that into words to, to, in a, in a skillful way without like writing a novel is kind of a skill set in itself. You know, when I pitch people, my first line is always I'm reaching out about so and so to be on your show, to discuss. And I do the three leading topics because they, I'm assuming they don't know who my person is. But if they like those three topics, no matter how long or short that bio is, they're going to keep reading if it's a fit or I just save them a bunch of time and they can move on. But, you know, I normally just, I try and condense it to like two, two, um, two paragraphs. Yeah. Here's a list of four to six topics. It can't be. I can talk about sales. It's like, what is your system? What is your proprietary system? What is your, not gimmick, but like, what is it you do that's special? You kind of develop topics around that. And, uh, oh, yeah, you have to include links to yourself. A lot of people don't do that. Yeah. Yeah. The key word, I'm going to go back to where you started to follow up. Follow. I mean, people, you nailed it when you said it earlier. You don't ever really know what's happening on the other side. And you can take it personal or you can, you know, not be thorough or just assume that, oh, I checked the box. I asked and it didn't happen. I did asked once and did one follow up and it didn't happen. It's the follow up. It's the, it's the, and hitting him with the right time. If you didn't hit it with the right time, then try three months. Like, if you're doing entrepreneurs, don't hit them up on Fridays. I don't send emails on Fridays. Yeah. Unless it's already a conversation I'm having. But I also know entrepreneurs, whether or not they like that I do this on Sunday night when they're watching House of Dragon. They've got their laptop on their lap. So I send emails on Sundays from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. And, uh, just, just, you don't know if they were sick. If they're on vacation, they're between assistants. The assistant, the first time around was inept and didn't see how special you are. They, some assistants look at every submission. Others, when you're not looking are like, there's 36 of these fuckers. I'm not doing this. Yeah. I'm going to look at five. I'm going to book the next five interviews and I'll deal with the rest of this later. You just have no idea what is going on on the other end. I, you know, real world example. Like we get, we get, I don't want to sound exact like exaggerating. At least a hundred and sometimes over 200 requests a month for our, for this show. Guys, I just want you to know he's not making that up. And when your show is as successful as this, that's literally what you're going up against. And so, and right now we're going through some growing pains and adding staff and replacing some staff and just adding different talent sets. And so it's been that period. And a lot of times it's me and one of the person and usually it would have been three or four people like vetting that. And it's been like me and one and half a person for like a couple of weeks. And we're not responding as fast or as often as we did. And like, because it's just the season of things that are going on. Whereas if you had happened to send the request four months ago, still would have been up against it, but probably getting really timely responses and thoughtful, you know, yes, no, maybe, you know, maybe next year, like whatever it might be, depending on what the request is. But again, you just don't ever know what's happening there. And so you have to just be human and thoughtful and resourceful. We can't say it's about the people that have like just conversational, funny, pod, I mean, well, comedians, they've got comedian stuff to do. But if you're talking to someone on a business investing entrepreneurship marketing sales show, they're entrepreneurs. They've got other stuff going on. Yes. I mean, the podcast is a business or a hobby amongst you've got five businesses. I've got three. And they're plenty of other people that it's like, maybe they've only got two, but one of them really requires 90% of that. You just don't know anything. Like, and so follow up is important. And so I like, I do one follow up like eight days later, and another one like 10 days later, because not many people are sick for more than three weeks. Not many people are on vacation for more than three weeks. I've hit people up when they're on a month long honeymoon. And I had no idea like, but that's how I do it. I figure I'm not going to do a fourth email. They'll, if they, if they care about who it is, I have, they'll come back to it. I've literally had people say, hey, sorry, I just saw this, you know, it's not a fit this time round. That was an email that came a year later. And it was like, it was an assistant. I'm like, you're going back over emails from here. You're at least appreciative of the awful. Yeah. So like, you found this in spam or whatever. And you actually responded. That's crazy. And I have done the four months later found the email and gone, this is a perfect fit. Why did we say yes? Well, and that's, that's the only way you're assistant like whoever they might be. They might understand your industry perfectly. Or they might not understand it at all and see the parallel. Or maybe they only understand you. They know what you're right for. But they don't, you know, there's, there's, there's just going to be something they don't know about you and why you want to have a guy that talks about stem cells on your show. I don't know. It's what do you think back to the value of, you know, like, okay, we gave people the tips on kind of the outreach format, the follow up being Uber imported. What's something that maybe people sweep under the rug? It's not that important. I'm not going to update it. Like social profiles, like personal website. What's the stuff that really matters or doesn't matter? You know, like in your experience. So one, like five character detail, that has made a big difference. At least for some people is when I list out like at the bottom of the email, I put their website, their Instagram, they're like, oh, the things that they're active in. Yeah. If they have over a thousand on any, I put them parentheses, 2.7 followers, 15,000 followers, whatever. And there have been some like producers that are like, they've come to me and said, I really appreciate you do this because we're now at a part, a point in our journey where we have to consider their following. And that's not great, especially, I mean, I've also had people say, hey, your guy doesn't have 40,000 on one profile. I'm like, yeah, but he's got a nine-figure real estate portfolio. If you want him to go, I've said to someone, I will have him go buy another 20,000 if that's what you want. Like your other guests. Exactly. Or you can have him on on merit because he's got a nine-figure real estate portfolio and you're a real estate chef. Oh, shit. That that's real good right there. I mean, it's like, give me a break. I don't do that that often. That's one thing that I was like, this is stupid. I mean, you can have him buy the extra if that's what we're talking about. I like it, it's either there or stop there. Yeah, yeah. Like you're really doing your homework. Like you can figure this out. Like, okay, they play in the vanity game here. We play in the real game. Yeah. You know, and I get why certain shows for certain guests and certain things that whether it's real vanity fake, whatever, the optics may be matter, but that's not every show. No, no, it's definitely not. There's only a few that do it that way. The other thing, this is just so small, but it's like, this is what I do for a living. So I think about it a lot. If I have someone who has someone else on their team that's already been pitching or to marketing or something, I'll go back and forth with like the draft of the pitch and they'll add things like my, my, my outreach is Ryan. I'm reaching out about Spencer Carpenter being on the show to discuss this. They'll add things like we're reaching out about the potential possibility of a collaboration between your two brands. I'm like, dude, it's not, it's not helpful over complicated. And it's, and had that exact thing last week. That's so funny. You bring that up. And if you are really, if you truly feel you're a nobody and that you're just asking your idol, if you can be on a show fine, but I don't approach podcast hosts like I'm asking for a favor. I like, my clients are there to bring value. And your show needs valuable guests. My guest needs valuable shows. Like, there's a, there's a cooperation here. And don't overcomplicate it. Don't come off rude either. Don't like say like you should be thankful to have us on the show. But, and maybe this is just a luxury I have because I'm a representative and not an individual reaching out on my behalf. But I, no matter the size of the show, I look at it like we're peers. You might decide otherwise. You might decide my person's not a fit. But I'm reaching out because I believe they are. Or I'm hoping they are. Yeah. And I just think that that's like, it's, it's a certain, I mean, it's kind of a confidence thing. But you know, at the end of that, this is a give and take. And that's okay. I'll give an insider tip here. Value, baby. Spencer, we're all about value today. Talk to Spencer Carpenter. He is the founder of outlier audio. So tip here. If you're wanting to go on a show or get, or if you're wanting to get a big guest, it's on the biggest guests I've had on this show. Personal DM. What's up, man? Love this and this about you, something that I really admire about them, this, this heartfelt, like not generic, like some specific. Yeah. You know, love the latest movie you're in, we're, or whatever, you know, but some specific word like I'm being genuine. Yeah. Also, hey, I host a show. It's pretty fucking popular. That's what I say. I don't say, you know, number one, I just say it's pretty fucking popular. Love to have you on. Yeah. 80% conversion rate. Like just that. Yep. Like with big name guests. Like just being human. Yep. And look, I do have a, I have the credibility and, you know, a non-paid for verified account. There's things that you're working in my favor that they can check some mental boxes that I'm not Joe Schmo. Yep. But at the same time, I'm just being human, you know, just being direct, you know, like two guys or, you know, two professionals, whatever it is, got a girl, girl, girl, whatever it is. But I don't know. I think there's just that, it's honestly over complicate things, or like over to your point, complicate it or professionalize it versus just humanizing it. Yep. Well, I mean, and that's what this medium is. It's just being, that's the whole thing that's great about it. It's just being human and talking to one another and, um, yeah, it's, it's, I also, just so most people know, this isn't over commercialized or monetized and like most of the time you're not like paying to be on shows, you're just going on because you've got value and they need someone. Um, yeah. And those are our shows to do that. Yeah. And like, and for the record, I have a paid Spencer, Spencer has to pay us. I don't give him the check yet. No, I'm just kidding. No, no, it's like, but Spencer has value that our audience needs value. And we like promoting podcasting and the medium because we know it's the future of media. But, but what the, the point there is that like when Matthew McConaughey was doing that tour of all these podcasts, people weren't like paying him for that. You know, no, he wanted to go out there and promote his book. And, um, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Mark Cuban has charged people to be on shows. No, I'm not saying he has. I'm just, I wouldn't be surprised. I've heard that like even, I remember like victory the podcast, the entourage podcast, when they had Charlie Sheenhan, they said, yeah, we split ad revenue. So it was like, we're, we're, he's getting as much as we're getting out of the show. And that's like, that's a, just no problem with that. That's, it's equal. It is. And we talked about it. Like Pat McAfee came out and said, it's, it's public knowledge now. He pays Nick Sabin to come on every week. He paid Aaron Rodgers to come on every week. And like a million, millions of dollars, like, you know, like yearly, like two or three million, I think Aaron Rodgers is weakly. I don't know if he does anymore, but was. But that netted Pat understood the game. Like for sports, Aaron was doing interviews with anyone anymore. And it pretty much helped him get the $85 million NFL or ESPN deal licensing his show. That was pretty good ROI. 85 mil for three million year for Aaron. A math works out. But yeah. And, and back to the original points, like being human is the important part. Like when I had a client on Mark Manson's podcast, he, I mean, he might have said, yes, either way. But I let him know like, you've been a huge influence on me. And this is how I can bring value to you is. If you decide that I have a guess that's that is helpful for your show, that's how I can contribute to you. And I'd love to be able to do that. And um, you know, especially if you're going after a big podcast or big guests, that's where you can be valuable. And maybe it can be as simple as your book changed my life. But if you can really elaborate on it a little bit, personalize it. Yeah. It goes a long way. And, um, so, but that that's what is cool about this medium is you, you can just kind of reach out. And again, that's also what brought me to this, especially if you're in the entrepreneurship or business space, there's no gatekeeper at William Morris, C-A-A-U-T-A for most of these people. There might be an assistant. You gotta get through the assistant. Um, but I even think that like, if you make it heartfelt and the assistant normally would ignore it, they might send it to their boss or just like, you know, because let's assume the assistant cares about the person they're working for. And they want to make their day. Hey, you, this guy might not be a fit, but he wrote you a hand, you know, it's a handwritten letter that he mailed here about being on his podcast. I don't know. Do you want to look at it? It's, it can, it can be worth the effort for sure. Or a DM, you know, Hey, exactly. Is, uh, you know, we're at this intersection point with audio and video with podcasting. Do you have a perspective on the balance of the mediums, the, the talking, you know, you obviously were two talking heads here. We have multiple cameras in the room and it is what it is. Um, but I do think and where we're pushing is towards this YouTube space, which is huge for podcast growth now, uh, and discoverability and all that sort of thing. Um, what's your perspective on the, the medium, the video medium, you know, where it might go, like these, you think in toil or think about these things? Yeah, it's, it's, um, so like here's, here's like why I like to podcast. I could just listen to audio whenever I wanted doing one work or whatever with thing, whatever it might be. But once my favorite podcast added the video, now when I watched issues in the morning, for 15 minutes, I'll stock where I was at in the audio, put my phone up in front of my face while doing dishes and watch the video part. Um, when Lex Friedman had Matthew Cox on his show, Matthew Cox was like the number one on the Marshall's list or FBI or something like that on the run for a few years. It was a six hour interview. And three hours into it, I was done doing all the work I wanted, but I still wanted to listen. So I went into the living room and sat down on the couch and pulled it up and watched the rest of it. And I thought it was crazy when Gary V said more people are going to start watching video podcasts on their TV. But they are maybe not prime time. But it's, it's definitely happening. And I have clients that, um, come to me and they, they only want to do in person video podcast. And that's that's for a variety of reasons. Like some people are just like, I can't connect with someone over zoom. I just, I can't do it very well. Other people are like, I'd rather have the high quality video content. And it's worth me flying and paying for the lodging and stuff to get that video rather than paying a videographer to come into my office. Yeah. But from the entertainment standpoint, um, even if it's not for a long form conversation, sitting down on the couch, what does better on Instagram reels? What does better on TikTok? What does better on YouTube shorts? Good quality video, not split screen, zoom where one person had a really good camera and the other person's connection kind of sucked. I mean, look, let me, let me be clear, especially if you're not doing podcasts yet, it's all worth it. Do it all, but to answer your question about the progression, the in person video is definitely the trend. And if you can afford to do it, you should. But this is also an investment, you know, not everybody can and maybe got to build your way up there. And but this is how you're going to get the, this is how you're going to get the attention of someone, those big names. Yeah. And whether you're a guest or a host part of the benefit of podcasts is the access. So we were talking before like if you could have Oprah on the show, great. But even though it would be way more convenient for her to do zoom, if she was in South Carolina speaking at Clemson or something like that, what do you think is going to be more attractive to our stopping by, fitting in her schedule or trying to get her to do it when she's at home and her life routine. We want her right there in that chair, baby. Exactly. We're coming for you, Oprah. I'm telling you, she's on the short list. But it's so true. And I think it's crawl walk run. I mean, you can, it doesn't have to be all at once. Like if you're starting a podcast, you're going on podcasts like all those things, but the in person, I mean, there's a reason, you know, we've transformed, you know, once you get to a certain level, it's like, we're either going to embrace this growth and take it to the next level and maximize the the leverage that we're creating. And the relationships you build in person and just getting to know someone and absolutely quality. I mean, like, this is going to look gorgeous. It's 4K. We've shot a few episodes in here and like, Saugers knows what he's doing. Yeah, our talented producer. And 4K in a different vibe. Well, and I mean, the in person is cool. Like, there's this awesome studio in Austin, I think it's called pouch six or something, but modern wisdom is filmed out of there in a few others. And I watched their, the studios reel of like, who comes in? I think in the first month, I followed them. They had Tim Ferris, Gary V. Mark Manson. And if you, just like a few, and like, all these people are going to this to you, I'm trying to open a studio like close, closer to in Philly where I'm out of that's closely airports so that when someone important flies in, they can easily come in for an interview and fly out or that's what they're coming for. It's still convenient for them. Going with a client to do an interview, the interview they had before was Cody Sanchez. And I said to my client, like, I want to get their 15 minutes early, just in the event that you're like, she's still there. And, you know, she does, I'm sure she doesn't remember who I am. Like, we didn't, I said she's awesome. Yeah, that's all I did. I just let her know she's awesome. Yeah. Um, but it was like, that was added value to the trip. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. As it closed out here, talk with Spencer Carpenter, founder of Outlayer, audio, Spencer. I mean, where's it all headed, man? What's, uh, what's the next couple of years, her outlier look like, where we want to take this thing? Uh, dude, I just want more people that I can get podcasts and make them happy. You know, I explain to you, my job has always been, all of my jobs have been supporting talented people. And when I left music, I was never going to book someone Madison Square Garden, Coachella, anything like that. But like, here I can get you on a top podcast that moves the needle for you. It's with someone that you really look up to something that's going to add credibility to, I can add value in that way. And so I just like continuing to support talented people, you know, and, um, it's not always business. Some people just have really good nonprofits. They are out there doing good in the world. And I've never had any grand idea that I was going to change the world, but I can help people that are. And so that's what that's what I look at like this business is as I'm helping people that either change the world or put information out there that can help change people's lives. I think you're really genuine, man. Thank you. I appreciate that. That's going to come across. Appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you having me. This is awesome. Where can everybody find you? Yeah. So, um, websites just outlieraudio.com on Instagram. I'm just Spencer Carpenter LinkedIn as my name as well. So I'm pretty active on Instagram and LinkedIn. Sweet. You know, to find them, we'll have him in the show notes outlier audio, Spencer Carpenter. He's a good dude. And if you want to get out there on the shows, you know who to call. Hey, guys, you know, to find me, Ryan is right.com. You'll find all the highlight clips from today, the show notes and the YouTube video. You got to see this gorgeous studio saga set up. We'll see you next time on right about now. This has been right about now with Ryan Alford, a Radcast Network production. Visit ryanisright.com for full audio and video versions of the show or to inquire about sponsorship opportunities. Thanks for listening.