Earn While You Scroll: Inside Mode Mobile’s Business Model with Dan Novaes

the most valuable thing that we have as humans is our attention. There's nothing more that's more important and it's the new oil. It is the data your data and your attention is that but what people really shocked and surprised is that the data is actually by itself not that valuable because companies like Facebook and so much have so much of it and then you're basically if the products free you're the product. They're not incentivized but why are those companies worth trillions of dollars because of your data but when you actually put it out it's not worth more than a hundred dollars a year but when you mix data plus attention like action that's worth a lot. This is right about now with Ryan Alfred a Radcast Network production. We are the number one business show on the planet with over one million downloads a month. Taking the BS out of business for over six years in over 400 episodes. You ready to start snapping next and caching checks? Well it starts right about now. Hello and welcome to right about now. We're always talking about how you could stay right and what is happening now. We could talk about last week. We could talk yesterday. We could talk about next year. No, it's now today. Everything's moving quick but you got to take advantage of the here and the now because you live in the moment people. That's why we're here. That's why we're number one because you made us that way and you know what we're number one because our guests they're kick ass. They're bad ass. They are. Dan Novias. He is a co-founder and CEO of Mode mobile. Topic I love to talk about mobile cell phones. They are the 2023 Deloitte's number one fastest growing North American software firm. I got that all in. What's up, Dan? What's up, Ryan? Thanks for having me. Hey man, I'm ready. Ready to talk mobile? How I make money carrying this thing around. I like this topic a lot, Dan. It goes down a lot of avenues number one, mobile, number two, breakthrough technology. Number three, teaching people how the markets work and how we are in the attention economy. We're going to get some more mobile customers and better, yeah, maybe some smart people that will recognize their own businesses that need attention, that need to be partnering with you. That's where I'd say the bigger opportunity is for them and for you. But talk to me, but we don't just have it in the Naples. Naples is very hot right now. It's always a good it's a good time. Naples are Miami always a good time. It used to be based in Chicago. That's where we started the company and we were sick of the winter. We moved our way to South Florida and hang out all about these areas. I definitely trade the 110 degree heat with the humidity from the negative 30 that we were getting in Chicago back in the day. I spent one winter in Chicago. That's all this southern boy needed. That was it. It's pretty miserable in the winter, but it is a great city, but the cost of living in the taxes man. I mean at the end of the day, that's also a difficult thing to swallow. Just by moving to Florida, you see your paycheck go up because you don't have those state taxes to deal with. I can't come. Nice. No complaint. You're obviously a hustler in the most respectful way. We've made hustling a bad term somehow in America, but it's not a bad word at my book. I saw this story flipping a thousand dollars in birthday cash into a two million dollar business by age 20. That was the first thing that got my attention. And the first thing I want to ask Dan, is it nature or nurture for guys like you? You just born that guy or it's something mold you into it. I would say my first business I started was reselling items and stuff on eBay. And I ended up becoming like a titanium power seller, which at the time that you were doing over anything a million a year on it. And that was before that whole dropshipping stuff. I mean, dropsh, I mean, there's been so many courses like some less 20 years. I see these people doing it. I was like, dude, I was doing this stuff 20 years ago. But even before then, I didn't know what entrepreneurship was as a word. I don't know like these like Pokemon cards. That was a big opportunity to everyone with the really love. And I definitely fell into the Pokemon ideology of collecting them. But then I was always looking at how do I get better opportunities. And then I was always really into Japanese snacks. And there was a Japanese grocery store and town in Indiana that I grew up in. And my mom brought me there. And I saw these like Japanese Pokemon cards. And they were totally different than I Pokemon I'd ever seen. But they had these different holographics. And then I would buy them. And then I take them to school. And then I would tell these narratives about what this Pokemon card did. Even it was all in Japanese. And all you could see was a number, though. That was the only thing in English writing. And I was able to get these kids to trade me their fast cards, their charzards effectively. And then I take the charzards and that sell them at the card store for 60 bucks. And I did that for a while until some kid in my neighborhood told his mom and said I was taking advantage of them. And I had to refund them the money because my parents were pissed. I wasn't like trying to scam. Here's a trade you want to do it. That's kind of how my brain banked. Another situation where it kind of got in trouble. So I think that the entrepreneurship sometimes turns into mischievousness is how it's viewed in society. But it wasn't. I wasn't purposely trying to do these things. I'm from Brazil originally. But I grew up in southern Indiana. And my whole life I would go between these two countries. Very different places for sure. Because, you know, Indiana and Brazil. I'm from some Paulo, Brazil. Top 10 biggest cities in the world type stuff. Brazil, it's kind of, it's more chill. More chill culture. So you can go, for example, this is like the late 90s. I'm 10 to 12. You know, kind of like in New York City, they have those little like stores on the street corners that you come by magazine. Kind of a new stamp. And they have a voice there. And as long as you have the money, you can just buy it. The US that would never have, I didn't even know where you could get a pack that the friend of mine's dad had a subscription. At that time, I was like, wow, this is insane that I have access to this. So I bought three of them at the time. And then I would sell the pages to kids at my school for 20 bucks each. I mean, 20 bucks in 1990. That's like 100 bucks, like you know what I mean? That's how I use it, middle school. Yeah. Right. And then finally, when I got caught and got trouble was this kid traded me for all of them. And he basically gave me a tennis racket plus 300 bucks and a pair of coves. And I remember thinking like, wow, that was like such a great trade. And then he got caught because he stole 300 bucks from his parents. You know, so it's similar situation. And then again, I got so much trouble because then my mom's like, everyone's gonna think it's your dad's porn. I didn't even, you don't even think about that. That wasn't even in my brain. So then I kind of just took a pause. I guess I didn't like purposely to do that. But that's how I make money up until I was 12. And then I found out about working, the concept of working when I started working at Polo Store. I was about 15, 16 years old. I just got into car. And my dad, he was cool because he financed the car for me, but I had to pay the payments. And then any upgrades I wanted to do, then I had to pay for that. Which is reasonable. And then I was like, okay, I'm gonna just work at the Polo Store. I had a factory outlet mobile in my house. And I worked there for two weeks. And it was the worst thing I had ever done. It was a lot of work. I got my first paycheck. And it was 75 bucks. And I was literally so shocked that it was so hard to make 75 dollars. I had completely blacked out and forgotten all about the Pokemons and the Playboys and all that stuff. But after that first week, I was like, that's insane. Anyways, but I kept there for another week. Fortunately, I was dating a girl there at the time. So that was another incentive. You know, so I was like, okay, it's not that bad. But then this big tour bus of Japanese tourists came because there was a Toyota plant that was being built to my town. And they brought literally 60k worth of stuff on the random Sunday. No one was there. The store was about to close me and one of those are dude. We're closing up. And we handled the entire sale. And I'm thinking, okay, we just ripped 60k for the store. They're for sure gonna give us a commission or something. That's a lot. And they gave us a five dollars RB's gift card. And I'm thinking, this is ridiculous. The 40% discount that I got, which was a good perk to get. I was like, if I gave them half, I could have ripped 20 or 12k. And then that's when I had the aha moment. And then I was like, oh my gosh, you were in smartphones. So you knew like back then I had a palm trio. It was one of those palm pilots that you could write and all this stuff. It was the cool thing in my school because very few kids had that. And I was taking pictures of everything. And I had cross reference on e-day. And then I found the perfect item. It was like this leather jacket. They'd sell it at the LM off for like a 180 blog after my discount was 140. With 15, it was selling on their store for $380. You can make 200 bucks of jacket. So I just bought three on my dad's emergency credit card that he had given me in case I ever run into an emergency. But I kept the receipt because I knew we had a 30 day return policy. No questions asked as long as the tags are wrong. And then I listed them that day and dude, all three sold them one night. And I made 650 bucks. And I was like, wow, that's insane. And so then I just rinsed and repeated that for three or four months. I had everyone in the store buying those jackets for me. I'd pay them 25 bucks. And some managers were cool with a sum or not. And so I left. And before I did, I made like 35k. One four or five months. And that was my seed capital to get started. And found this opportunity of arbitraging high end electronic products, iPods, MacBooks, other stuff in other countries, started selling in Brazil, started selling them in the UK, Australia, and you play with the currency. And things are more expensive. It's like a thousand dollar phone here, a thousand pounds in the UK. But if you add the currency value, it's a 1600 bucks. And there's usually a lack of when it comes out. So that's kind of what I was doing. I started all through high school. And then my freshman year was doing about two million a year in revenue. And all bootstrapped. My mom was shipping all these packages. One of the post office knew my mom, FedEx people, all that stuff. And that's how it all started. I love this. Amazing story number one. I like you. I liked you before we started. Now I really like you. I just like very resourceful people. And if I'm in a bunker somewhere, I want the most resourceful people with me. So Dan Navias is invited to my bunker. If we're ever in a bunker, hopefully never. Because I have a feeling two of us could do some damage. And the reason I asked sort of this nature and nurture, I'm curious because I have four boys and all smart kids and a couple of them are definitely have that sort of entrepreneur side to them. They kind of figured out they're resourceful. And you know, they have a good life. We don't give them everything they want, but they don't need anything. And I'm not saying I don't know this. I'm not saying whether you did or didn't matter if you grew up with money or even having anything. But your parents were giving you a decent life. It sounds like regardless of you. So where does the want to come from? This is like a common theme for me lately. I like to get into this nature versus nurture thing. Like can it be taught or yeah, I think you know, I'm going with this. So yeah, um, I never had to like scrounge for food. There was always a meal at my table. I would say like I grew up in a middle class, probably middle class to that upper and that threshold. You're the rich kid, but you aren't poor kid. And that's a luxury. And that's an extreme luxury to have that because I like to focus on myself and I focus on them. My parents, they weren't entrepreneurs. My dad worked for a company. I was just like always very curious as a kid. I'd ask weird questions to people. Not in like a weird awkward way. For example, when I was playing baseball, I would ask one of the dads was driving a little team. And I was noticed that because we were fan shopping. And I wanted to get the best value. And so I was like, Hey, I noticed this is the luxury wind star, like the four wind star. How much is that you back? Did you get this used? I feel like he's like, you don't ask that question. It's adult. He actually said that to me kind of scolding me. I'm just trying to figure out how much the monthly payment is on this car. That's just how my brain operated. And one thing I have started realizing, it definitely started to creep me up much more through later high school years is that if I were to rely on my parents, I have limitations of what I can do. And then when you start that first job, even though it was like not a long period of time, that one week or two weeks at Polo, really put a shock into me where I was like, dude, like that was so hard. That was so hard for me to full close, do all that stuff. And it was back breaking work. And there's a lot of that. There has to be a better way of doing that. And then in college, I then had another realization of that. I went to business school. And all my friends were getting internships. And it was the hype thing to get an internship at Goldman Sachs. These like name, brand consulting things. I got all of those because I had very good grades. And I had a business. And everyone's like, why aren't you applying? And it's like, well, I just want to make sure that this isn't for me. And I had a nice interview and all that stuff. And I got it the first week where they won and done you excellent. But then when you like go in and actually do the work, how's like, dude, this is horrible. I'm just sitting around doing PowerPoints all day. And I'm just getting hazed because I'm just in turn sucks. And I really came with that realization. It's like, hey, I think I'm an entrepreneur. Like I think that's what I need to do with my life. And I came to that realization really as I would say, coming into my senior year, junior to senior year of college, where I really fundamentally do it in my soul. That's what was my destiny. And that's what I enjoy doing because like where I get my most energy is kind of like idea and creativity. Our Cuban says it's like, you know, he likes the sport of business. Some people are really passionate about certain things. They really like to play music or they like to paint or whatever. And my passion is I really like entrepreneurship. I like creating. That's my version of art. And so I think that that nature. And then there are things that you nurture. I think the downside of my personality of people that are innately entrepreneurial is they have to learn the lesson of thinking long term and scaling. And you will make a lot of mistakes. Like you might have all these ideas on stuff. But then those people tend to be solo preneurs. They have limitations. I think they know everything. They don't think they've short-term gains. There's a lot of hustlers that kind of can't get out of that. I call it zero to zero point one. Yeah, it's like fine. You're doing okay. And it depends what you want. And then I also learned wasn't just about money for me. I thought I like up until those 25. I was very focused on that. I like to have money. But that's not like what motivates me on a grander scale. And I think you learn these lessons. I like it. I think that's important. Now let's talk mode mobile. And I see security token sales. I see all this stuff around tokenization raising capital right around COVID time. I'd be curious. Number one, what formed the idea for mode mobile? And then when lighten the audience with a little bit of that story of building that company? Most people think that you're going to come up with some grand idea. And you're just going to scale it and everything so that you're going to fly off into the sunset. And it's broken to Mars. And I must say it's not possible. It happens. But not in my experience for myself at least. But I've only seen that happen to others. Mode was born out of a series of pivots. And I would say, and I think that's my number one skill in life is constantly pivoting. And the better I've gotten at pivoting, the better I can dial in what actually complements my business and is able to cut the scale. But what kind of really came out of this idea we had launched. I got into software after college. One of my where I was gone robbed and the like that almost took me down. But then I got into software and I was like, wow, you can really scale this much better way without all that cash that you need to basically have these items. I met my co-founder at a time he was in high school and I was in college in five, six years apart. Started building a bunch of apps and never had a major exit. I would say it had a lot of small like little 500k kind of app sales. And then we had this big idea and mode. This was where it was kind of born. We had a user's product that basically were aggregating a bunch of music services into one place. Didn't not get any traction. But we had one type of person using it. And it was lower income people that had a lot of time, not so many money. And they like the fact that we were aggregating all these music services in one place and didn't have to pay for it. We had interviewed them. She always talked to your customers. And then effectively we were like, well, what if we paid you to listen to music? I guess how would you be? Would you do tasks for that? And they're like, yeah, for sure. And so we threw up like a banner to get paid to play music and had like 300,000 people a month to sign that up. We launched it. And then we noticed it was really hard to make money off of paying people to listen to music. And so we moved into other stuff, playing games, shopping, charging. And the business started scaling from there. And then as you mentioned, 2019 is the first year we generated revenue under that business model is maybe slightly under a hundred K total revenue or something in that range. And by 2022, we had done just over 25 million dollars. And that's where that 32,000 for journey, 1% growth rate comes. And throughout that time is when that really kind of development of this idea came to fruition. We started seeing as like, hey, well, really building is going to earn OS is what we call it. We're just going to operating system for everything you do on the phone. People are spending a third of their waking life and in younger generations, a half of their waking life, there's 168 hours a week. If you're sleeping eight hours a day, there's 112 left. And then if you look at your screen time, it's about 30 to 40 hours that people are spending on average on their phone and the younger generation's 50 to 60. So if you add this up, it is insane. And the cost these devices are going down. The service is getting better and faster. And the first screen is now the phone screen. It's not the desktop screen anymore. It kind of makes sense from a standpoint of the business. And then we basically launched that app where you can take your smartphone, turn it on your phone. And then I had this idea, hey, we're going to launch a phone. And everyone's like, don't launch a phone. That is a very bad business. Take it into how do you even do that? And so I just flew to Hong Kong. I just didn't even have an appointment. I just hit a couple of people up. I want to tell you that to do that too. Yeah, I'm going to tell you that to do it. If you still think you did the right thing, I don't know, but I would have told you not to. I think it was necessary to get where you wanted to go. Even if it wasn't perfect, then fine. But the way I thought about it at the time was we're living in a very low interest rate environment. Effectively zero interest rate. The biggest issue with hardware is just putting up the capital to do that. I mean, the market's very very much change of last five years. I was like, look, we give rent a test and we get our users to buy this service. And the thesis I had was like, people will use a phone that will pay them more than downloading app. I use this exam quite often when you're at a restaurant and a waiter brings you a water versus you ordering an aqua panna or a pellegrino. You're more committed to the pellegrino and aqua panna because you spent four bucks on it. And it's like a token amount. But people will drink more of it than they will the tap water. And so the thought process I had is if you buy a phone whose premise, because all phones at about a hundred dollar price point were the same. It's like, you can't really differentiate. They're all the same thing. But one phone pays you. One phone doesn't pay you. Which phone are you going to choose? The one that pays you, especially if you're budget constrained. If you're dropping a two thousand dollar on a phone, you're like, you don't really care. But most people aren't. There's like one billion iPhones out there. There's like five to six billion of everything else. So was able to figure out how to launch only five thousand phones. We sold out of that first batch, did another one. And then I was like, okay, yeah, maybe we're going to do these phones. And I was like, well, actually, it's really hard to make a phone. And you didn't get it perfected and all that stuff. And all of our money's made on the software. But what I really needed to do is I need to prove out that the model is possible and that the numbers made sense. And we were able to prove that out. Like the retention was much better. People earned way more. And so now we're kind of in this business of starting to license this technology to the Motorola's and the Samsung's and the Verizon's of the world so that they can launch earm phones and launch basically the world's first free phone plans. That's where we're going. All signals point to like free. And it's possible. We're the closest company to making it possible. And so what would I do it again? I probably just would have launched one phone. I wouldn't have launched two. And I would have partnered with someone on the second one, moving, going back and rush us back. You learn to live and learn these lessons because it's like totally different than the core business. Our core business is a software business. And then you have to think about logistics and shipping stuff and just all the support that comes with it. But ultimately it still brought us to where we are today. And so I'm happy that it'll kind of win down that path. But as market change, you have to pivot as a business as well. And that's why in 2022, our growth was insane. It's because it was this ideal growth at all costs. Now it's that the market was rewarding. Everyone's IPOing. Everything was booming. And then now the market's really focused on profitability. And so we're focused much more profitability. So you kind of learn these lessons as you go and ultimately bring you into the right place. Like everything I think is meant to be the way it's supposed to be. And there's not any good or bad. It is what it is. And you'll find the bigger picture if you keep looking. It's a fascinating story. And I want to focus on the business model for a moment. You think about how much money over the years people have spent for cable TV and direct TV and all these things. For the right to watch commercials that get sold and you spend a hundred dollars two hundred dollars a month. What you're doing is the equivalent of people didn't pay cable and they got paid to watch cable. I'm saying the right analogy. Essentially that because attention has gotten so valuable and so scattered that this is what people will do that they want people doing these things. So there wasn't a question there as much Dan is making sure validating that I'm explaining to our audience to understand this correctly. But here's where the question lies. And it's this. Where is the arbitrage here? Because whether it's music or games and they're willing to pay for people to listen or to play. If it's motivated for them to pay or play, it doesn't mean that they were naturally interested in it to begin with. They get paid, you get paid. Why did those publishers or games makers want monetary motivated audiences to play the games and where is the arbitrage lies? Is it because eventually they'll get addicted to it and they'll stick with it and they'll spend money? That's the idea. And it's uncertain that they have to spend money. It's like look just because people don't have any money or have some money doesn't mean they don't have any money. There's a big difference on the two. But the game makers want them playing in hopes that they keep playing. Exactly. It's the same thing like why free samples were sent someone some lotion and then they might would have never bought that lotion. But once they tried it, they get used to it. It's the same component where like why you get a three-month free trial to Apple music? What do they want? They want you to keep paying after that three-month list. That's the thing like we're optimizing to some sort of target that that advertiser has. That aligns value in some capacity. So like a Robin Hood is an example Robin Hood, what do they want? They want you to deposit five dollars into a broker's account. I think that's a minimum deposit to open up an account. That's worth a hundred bucks to them and because they have some sort of calculation on their end what the LTV of a user is and some sort of payback period that they know. And so basically it's okay if you're willing to pay 100 bucks for someone to deposit five into an account, then we might give like 50 to that user. And then now that person deposits five, they get 50. Robin Hood also will give him another like 25 or 30 bucks in free stock. So now this person has an $85 stock portfolio but Robin Hood get their goal in 100 bucks and now you're incentivized to buy stocks and see your portfolio grow and get involved in that. That's kind of like the idea is why the incentive mechanism works. It's not going to work for every brand. Not going to see Louis Vuitton run a campaign inside of our product. I would be really shocked but it'll work for most things, most everyday things. And then what's happening is that we're also seeing more of an affluent audience because we now open up this like crowdfunding concept where anyone can invest in the company. But the people that are investing they're more fluid. They're not necessarily my target market. We have a lot of older individuals 50 and 60 plus especially that 60 70 demographic like those boomers like my parents age. They're not using my product. They are not my target customer. It's not like my biggest age distribution. Yeah. But they are actually my biggest investor base. And why? Why is that? Because they've seen what the smartphone has done for their kids, their grandkids, who resonates with that audience and they see the opportunity and the potential because the world has completely changed over the last 20 years. Some smartphones were introduced. We've started thinking about it as like, okay, well, what is our core business? If you really distill down what's my business? My business is I'm in the business of helping people earn a safe money. I'm not in the business of just like the smartphones. I was like, sure, yeah, that's what we do. That's the vehicle which we use to make that happen. And so we started thinking like, okay, could we create products that are interesting to more fluid individuals because everyone's earned a safe money. It doesn't matter if you're a billionaire or not. And so we started kind of really think other opportunities to offer solutions for them. They don't have to necessarily do it through our phone. Maybe that's through email and through other mechanisms that we do that. And so that's how the business is started to scale and other ideas and how we're also getting other advertisers that are much higher end, I would say, interested in our audiences and how we're expanding our business line. But that's not something that we had even two years ago. That's something that's kind of new or the course of this last six to 12 months, I would say. For brands, is this the marketing channel in a way? It's a very unique one. I don't know if marketing is the right word. It's a trial channel in a way. Trial. Should they think of this as a way to grow existing audience or as a way to tap into new audience? IE demos, things like that. Obviously. Yeah, I would say probably new. It's like the campaigns are just, you need to kind of structure them a little bit differently. Like we buy a lot of campaigns. Yeah, whether you think it might look like it might be something along the lines of like, if it's a game, for example, it's going to be tied to a certain amount of the level you get to or it might be the reward. We don't pay you to install an app because what would happen? You'd install and then you stop using the app. So we might pay you over the course of a week to play a game like a candy crush. We get every day some sort of amount. And so you want to basically give them enough like a little butt in and then they might find an interesting product. But we also get a lot of information on what people are doing on their phones. So we know, hey, this person has Bank of America installed. Chime has a $400 offer. If you open up, I'm just making this up, but if a $400 checking account offer, I'm pretty interested. If I'm banking with Bank of America and I can open up a free checking account and get a $400 bonus, that's pretty interesting to me, even me as this person right now. And I know a ton of those opportunities available. So the idea here is, how can you take your directing that attention? And that's what you were saying. The most valuable thing that we have as humans is our attention. There's nothing more that's more important. And it's the new oil. It is the data your data and your attention isn't. But what people are really shocked and surprised is that the data is actually by itself not that valuable because companies like Facebook and so much have so much of it. And then you're basically, if the products free, you're the product. They're not incentivized. But why are those companies worth trillions of dollars? Because of your data. But when you actually put it out, it's not worth more than $100 a year. But when you mix data plus attention, like action, that's worth a lot. Because now you are taking an action to get involved. And that's what we've gotten really good at is mixing those two knowing what are you interested in? What do you do? And then here's an action that you could take if this product's interesting to you based on the things that you're already buying or doing or seeing. And then that's worth a lot to brands. And that's how you can make thousands of dollars a year without necessarily having to spend money to do so. I keep coming back as this thumbtack or as this a little bit of like my head gets in these weirds a little few different spaces. I think you know what I mean by that because it's thumbtack is the marketplace where you get paid for your services or whatever. Service here is giving away as attention and or data is it a marketplace for that? I had get scrambled a bit on all that. I think it's microkicks. We can get a lot of microkicks. Uber did this for cars, Airbnb did this for home, but not everyone owns either of those two assets, but everyone owns a smartphone effectively. Giving people opportunities, these aren't full-time jobs. It's thumbtack, like, I have to be a handyman to be able to call life around. Not everyone's a handyman, you know, not everyone's willing to love your own. Yeah, they actually have a skill. Yeah, you have to have a skill. And here's the thing, there's a lot of people that free time. Also, there's people that are kind of in situations where down on the lock something's happening at the time and then here's going to be easy win. Momentum is everything. A small win transforms a bigger win, which transforms something bigger. We create those opportunities. Is mode going to fully supplement missing income if you've just lost your job? But is it capable of paying for your phone bill? Is it capable of paying for gas for you to get to work? Is it capable of being able to be a meaningful addition, especially given that we are at the highest amount of credit card debt this country's ever seen? It's no better overseas for many of these countries. Inflation is really hitting the lower middle class and lower, and people don't have a thousand bucks in their savings account. This is a staff from 2022. And the company was good in 2022 for the first half. We're 22% of people are 56% of Americans on a thousand bucks in their savings accounts. It's even worse now. It's not better because we had just all that COVID stimulus money. In a world like that, you need solutions like this. And so I think that that's like, you know, the thesis of kind of like where the business is going and what we're able to provide and always kind of going out in the sense of attracting more fluid customers with other types of solutions. And also we're starting to acquire a lot of assets internally and kind of building them into our ecosystem where instead of us sending them to a candy crush game, maybe we send them to a solitary game that we own. And then now we're able to capture revenue there as well. And the lifetime value that comes with that. And so that model really works really well. It's kind of the pee playbook and that's something that we're applying into our business and it's going quite well for us. Is the future OS or fiber? Is your future an app or is it as an OS? We built the ecosystem on top of Android. It's almost like a UI on top of Android, right now and say, but I think the fiber component is always going to be into it because like, how do you generate the rewards? There has to be an action that has to be taken. I think it's not one or the other. I think that it's more what we'll see more of is us using distribution through partnerships in various different countries through phone brands and carriers around the world. That'll be much more of a focus in the way. Yeah, more as I kind of know as like, you know, you might see a Verizon or phone. So what we would love to see more we're powering that for those brands in multiple countries and then we have our own kind of direct consumer solutions and then we have a suite of portfolio of products that we own mostly in the mobile space, but some in other mediums as well as like newsletters and web properties that make sense with our broader model. And that's kind of like where the future of the business really heading. It's kind of a mixture between the pee playbook and like the venture capital growth and LTV2CAC model. But we want to build a profitable business. We're really focused on profitable growth and not growth at all costs. That's my one takeaway from running a business up until 2022 because it almost killed our business by kind of growth at all costs. That'll be a big focus as we still continue building the business into the future and ultimately for a potential IPO that we have our eyes set on. I know a few people have arrived. So probably already talked a few. They know they always had indirect channel and also that of their mainstream mind they had to pay as you go for like credit challenged in. Hey, the earn as you go phone. We on the trademark for that by the way. So I'm saying that. Yeah. Yeah. I basically own every trademark for anything you could think of like earning or a phone that makes money or anything like that. Like money versus save. Did it get weighed? Did it get weighed at all? It all sounds safe phone. Yeah, we didn't sound as good. We do say earnings and savings. But yeah, it's just like kind of a mouthful. I mean, we might own something around that too. I think we on like 12 different marks associated to that. Because it's really we could do a spinoff that's exactly the same thing with some kind of bank or like it'd be your IP or everything like that. They just want it to be all about like kids growing up. Hey, not the earn phone is the save phone for younger adults. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's fun. I mean, we have actually a lot of people that get the phones and then they give it to their kids to earn a little bit extra change. You know, so it makes sense. I see I know and this is so brilliant and so smart with where things are at where attention is the currency of today and a way to give back to people for taking actions and putting a little money in their pocket. Man, kudos to all your growth and success so far, man. Yeah, man, I appreciate it. Thank you for coming by. Keep up with everything that's going on. New advancements where they can get themselves earnings and savings phone. They can check out our apps. Obviously, you know, it's called earn app and the Play Store. If they put earn phone into Google, they can check out our website and it's in Best Buy and stores like that as well. If they're interested in deeper in the more the business side of the company and becoming a shareholder, joining the 50,000 or so shareholders that we have, they can check out invest.modemobile.com. We have a lot of information on the company and what's possible there and even have some programs where we give out $15 and free shares in the company. I have a very unique model that we got qualified where people can become shareholders with their points even that they are and so maybe they don't want to invest. That's where they can learn but they do want to invest. Those are the opportunities. Aras raised just under about $60 million. We have crowdfunding, one of the largest crowdfunders in America. That's the best place to keep up with the news and our webinars. We have a lot of interesting guests. We had Steve Lawsniac month ago and so it was cool to talk to the co-founder of the world's largest tech company. Yeah, they were a little coming. Yeah, and so it was pretty awesome to chat with him and learn about like, you know, some of the Steve Juffs like early days and kind of how we thought about Apple and some of the perks that we give to our shareholders. We'll have all the links of that in the show notes and on the website. Dan, it's been a pleasure, man. Let's do a V2 down the road. We could get underneath a few more topics but I really appreciate your time. For sure, thanks for having me Ryan. I really appreciate it and enjoying it. Hey guys, you know what to find us? Ryan is right.com. You'll find highlight clips from today, the full episode, the YouTube link and of course links to earn phone. We appreciate Dan for coming on the show. We appreciate you for making this number one. We'll see you next time right about now. This has been right about now with Ryan Alford, a Radcast Network production. Visit Ryanisright.com for full audio and video versions of the show or to inquire about sponsorship opportunities. Thanks for listening.