SHOVELING SH*T: The Entrepreneur's Messy Path to Success with Mike & Kass Lazerow

I don't even know who invested in us, but I know everyone who said no. You need someone who's not going to drop the ball when you hand off things to them. This is right about now with Ryan Alfred, a Radcast Network production. We are the number one business show on the planet with over 1 million downloads a month. Taking the BS out of business for over six years and over 400 episodes. You ready to start snapping necks and caching checks? Well, it starts right about now. What's up guys? Welcome to right about now. We're always talking about how to make you get right and in the moment. We can talk about yesterday. We can talk about last week. We can talk about a month from now. We can talk about the future, but we're here to talk about now. Because you know what? Action is now and present is here. And we need to talk about shoveling some shit. That's why that's what we do on this show. We talk about what's real. That's what it is to be an entrepreneur to a business person in today. So you know, I want to write to the source. Cass and Mike Lazaro. They are authors of shoveling shit. They're entrepreneurs. Gee, brand you've heard of. You know, we'll let them name drop. What's up guys? Hi, thanks for having us. It is great to be here. Love the energy and congrats all your success. Guys, set the table for our audience. They know they're going to know you now, but they probably know a lot of the things that you guys have touched. You've touched a lot of things as serial entrepreneurs and now authors of an amazing book. But I'm going to let, you know, we're going to make this an actionable learning lesson here of a show. We can, I'm sure they can find your stories all over for the long narrative, but it's important though, especially as a couple, as a married couple with children and everything you've been through. I do want you to set the table for them. And I'll let maybe Mike, you choose your cast to go first. Cast, please. Take it all. All right. So, you know, we're cast in Mike Lazaro. And he and I have been working together. If you can believe this, 28 years together, we started working together when we were just dating. And I had this crazy idea to start golf.com, where avid golfers could come and track their handy caps online and book T times. And then we started a big company called Buddy Media. And we ran that and grew that. It was the top social media marketing platform for all the top four, you know, Fortune 500 brands. We sold that to Salesforce in 2012. And we've been investors in VC since. And we wrote this book, Ryan, because we want to help entrepreneurs. We want to help them with the cheat codes. We have like 50 plus in this book. And we're really here to connect with your audience and help them to not step in the shit that we have stepped in. Let me just say this. I'm glad you cast, you know, a little something called golf.com. Brilliant. Brilliant idea. I read this book. And I was, I was reading it. I was, and I wish I hadn't had this 10 years ago. You know, because I'm about 10 years into my, I work for 15 years for other agencies. And I was like, can I wanted this 10 years ago? I would have saved me a lot of fucking pain. I'm telling you, there is gold in here. Like it's, it is phrased and formulated in a way that it's absorbed. Like I'm like, that made sense to me the way you kind of positioned it with the examples combined with the stories. So it is the narrative of the entrepreneurs guidebook. You know, that's not as interesting as shoveling shit. I know I'm a creative guy too. I love shoveling shit. But it is. It really, it really reads that way. And I see here amazed it's the names like golf.com and the things that you guys have worked on. And seemingly how I don't want it to just kind of fade off to the side. Like, those are, that's a big fucking deal. Like, yeah, you know, like that's a huge, you think, okay, well, I had golf.com. I don't know. I mean, did you, did you have the URL when you came out with a name? So if you can believe it back in, you know, 1998 when we started the company, the only URL we could get at that time was golf serve. So our original company's name was golf serve. And then we backed into this asset that we were able to buy. Mike, who is it from that we bought it from? From NBC. Yeah, from NBC that we just had it dormant. Like, made sense. $289,000. Ah, I was hoping you were going to say, might get $289. No, I mean, it was, it was worth that. I believe me. As that asset in the, in its time for something like this, oh, I mean, that's probably cheap. But there's a different world, right? It is. Now it's all about apps and streams and like, the front page of a website doesn't matter. But when we started, there were people at Yahoo that created the index of the web, right? Yeah. People who base it, oh, you're interested in golf. Here, 10 sites you should check out. So it was important back then. Yeah, it was. What was it like running golf.com? We probably learned more from golf.com that we learned anywhere because it was both a colossal failure and an epic success. And so we started the company and within a year of doing the company, we got an offer from a Sequoia backed golf company in Silicon Valley called chipshot.com. October 99, eat toys, go in public, worth billions of dollars. Internets here, height of a frenzy. I'm like 12 years old. I forget how old I was because I was like, cast as a little older or some people say a lot older. You didn't know that we didn't have much. And these guys are like, we want to buy your business and then merge it with our golf club manufacturing business. And Sequoia had like back Google and all these big companies. And then April 2000 came around and the whole market crashed. And we got a call actually right before that saying, oh, by the way, we're at a business. We can't pay any of your people. And you can buy it back. But you know, there's nothing we can do for you. And we just had to shovel shit. I remember that call really. I mean, that call is like in my, not only my mind, it's like in each cell. Like I was like, what happened? Is this real? And we're pot, we're totally in. So when you work with your spouse, there's no like, oh, my spouse has a great job. Like, we'll be fine. It's like, oh no, we're like, have it one kid. Health insurance is zero income now. And no money. We hadn't really made any money at the time. And don't forget, Mike, that ship shot had already transferred. And in those like two and a half months, they had transferred the bank account. So we hadn't no access to anything. Yeah. So that was like, Cass is fucking the best. Like, I'm like freaking out in the corner. She's like, we got this. Well, I was mad. I was really good. She got all the employees. She was super transparent. You know, she runs the companies. I do like sales and is dev and raise money. And we, it's been three years, three months trying to raise money to kind of buy it back and relaunch it. And somehow Cass insured that none of the employees left, which was miraculous. Talk to me about the raising money thing. You talk about it in the book, by the way, the handbook for an entrepreneur. It's, you know, it's a muscle that you have to develop and you get better at it, the more you do it. So there's a lot of fear that you build up, right? Like, oh my god, I don't want to ask this person for money. Oh my god. And at the end of the day, you know, it really is about your own fear because all they're going to say is yes or no, right? It's like, they say no, just move on. And that's something, I think, for me, Mike's much better at it than I am. But for me, I think I just really, oh, like the worst thing could happen is they just say no. Right? That's it. So I think that what you've done, Ryan, what, like a friend who were talking about Gary Vee and others, that's raising money, right? You don't go to investors, you go to customers, you win the business, you generate the revenue to then generate the profits, plow back in the business to grow. And so our heroes are the people not that have the safety of venture capital, right? But it is those entrepreneurs, like a lot of your listeners, who don't have the safety net, who are running restaurants, who are running service companies, who are running agencies. And they need the revenue to survive. And that's how you fundraise. And if you do a good enough job on the customer side, then maybe you have the ability to raise money to do an acquisition or to take some money off the table or to do, to make some moves, right? Yep. We've always been in businesses up until now that requires building software and a lot of upfront costs. And frankly, it's just easier for us than I think what you and a lot of others have done, which is hard. I appreciate you saying that. It is hard. But at the same time, though, there's brilliance in both sides, I think, you know, like, depending on what works for you, like, because I'm, I ask, even for my own self, I mean, because I'm developing something now that's tech heavy. And, you know, it's like, and I've never had a partner. And I'm like, or I've never had a dollar from anyone. I have no debt in the bank. So protect that. Yeah, it's, it's not easy. And it's not. Poo that, like, that's very rare and awesome. Investors are great. Some are best friends. But you're bringing a partner on board. And so unless you're ready to communicate and report and listen, it's, it's, you know, it's work. It's a relationship. I do think it's fascinating for you guys, being a husband and wife, founders of companies and investors together. You talk about in the book, if you are going to have a partner and a founder, those skill sets that work, what, like, you fill a gap. Like, I have a certain number of skills. You need to work with another person or group that fills the holes you have. That's exactly right. And it sounds like that word, maybe that's why it has worked. I know it's been work, but for you to, because like you said, Mike, you know, you've got the operator and then the sales and marketing and, you know, maybe I did. I don't want to say you don't have ideas cast, but I'm just short. The split is totally there and you're dead. You nailed it. Yeah, you nailed it because that's exactly what you need. When you have co-founders, you really do need to figure out, like, how to balance out the skills. And if you overlap, there's going to be just absolute micro management and, like, paralysis of decisions. So the best thing you can do is have a co-founder or more than one co-founder that had different skills. And that's when things really gel and you build this, like, implicit trust and you can move very fast. That's been the hardest thing for me. I've become a chameleon in some areas, but I know where the gaps are. And it's an entrepreneur and I think it's people listening can relate. If it's, like, trust is the word cast, that's the perfect word. Because I don't have a hard time trusting people. Like, I trust my employees. I'm not a micromanager. But when you don't have to think about your weaknesses, because you know it's getting, like, it's like having a good wife or a good partner or get anything, like, yeah, you got your back. You know, you don't have to think about it. Because thought takes energy, takes destruction. It's the mental bandwidth that it takes up in your brain going, is this person really doing their job? And then that takes you away from doing what you're great at. Yeah. And has that worked for you? Oh, yeah. It seems like it's got to be your super strength, it's just being a kind of calm moment. We call it our superpower. Because when I say I'm going to do something for Mike, he doesn't have to worry. When he says he's going to do something, he delivers. So when you have that and you're starting a company and then you're running it, and then you start to get, like, super fast and you hit the gas and you're scaling, that's what you need. You need someone who's not going to drop the ball when you hand off things to them. Now as investors, how do you evaluate your investments? How do you, I mean, they just, they just get put in front of you and you go, we like this, we don't like that one. Is it that he seems like that? I'm looking at our investments. We've done space. We've done liquid depth, which is water and a can. We've done game companies. We've done music festivals. We actually spent a lot of time thinking about that. Because we did the first 75 deals off our own balance sheet, and then we started a firm, which has been accepting some outside capital as well, and how you make decisions about investments is how you make money. I mean, that's the maker break. And what we realize is how we make decisions as investors is how every entrepreneur should look at their business. And so we put together what we call the go gauge, but it's a very simple six questions. Idiot proof. The six things are very simple, and it's what's a product? Why is it different? And what's interesting for you, and I know a lot of your marketing background, is not that different than how you come up with great marketing ideas, right? What's a product? Why is it different? Who's going to buy it? Not what the market size is, but who specifically is going to buy it, and how many of those people, right? We're in the golf business. We didn't own a golf course, so we're not getting tea time revenue. So really hone into like, who's going to buy it? And then it comes down to where we think we've outperformed, which is sales and marketing. How do you get people to find out about the product? Distribution and operations. How are you going to get the product to people? Which, you know, for this company, liquid depth, we had no idea how hard that was going to be. We're putting the water in the can in Austria, shipping it by boat to the US. Just to get it to distributors, to wholesalers, to get it to distributors, to get it to retail, to hopefully get it to a customer. H-2-O-No! Have we done another deal? Have we done another liquid deal? No. Because they're very hard. And the last one is just as a financial model makes sense. Not from a, you know, Goldman Sachs analyst perspective, but from brass tax, unit economics, you're selling it for Y. Can you make it for less than Y? What is the kind of net profit that you're going to make off of the product, the margin, and then what do you need to support the company? And especially early on, things pivot so much. You talk to customers, they punch you in the face. And you got to change. So we just want to make sure we start with something that makes sense on the spreadsheet, and then pivot from there. I like that. That sounds practical, but with a blend of intuition and belief, which I think that's kind of a gotta be it, right? It's like, yeah, the numbers gotta look good and you have all this stuff, but you gotta believe in it, right? So what I just said is like the table stakes. And then if we get through that, they meet Cass. And we entrepreneur, boom, boom, boom, boom. Oh, that is impressive. In a great way, you know, every entrepreneur, even when we say no, let's just say gets a lot from their conversation with Cass. We hated when investors would take a meeting and then they ghost us. They're like, and I know every one of their names, because those are people I remember. I don't even know who invested in us, but I know everyone who said no. Like every round. Oh, mine, like you and I. You and I are cut from the same cloth, brother. Everyone who says no, like I have, and I have all my rejection letters from college. I have like, I have a hundred jobs that I was reject from. But regardless, for me, it comes down to, do I want to have dinner with this person once a week? Like, is this someone I want to hang out with? Because you look at like scoped late, took 10 years to go from that initial money we gave to a $5 billion exit, right? You look at Mike Cesario Liquid Death. He's in it six years. We've been working together. We love each other. We love hanging out, right? We love jamming on the business. We love working on problems. So for us, it's, do we love the entrepreneur? And is it the right entrepreneur for this company? Just because it makes sense on paper, it could be the wrong entrepreneur. I'm not going to build a space product. I'm the wrong guy. And also coming back to what you said, Ryan, which is, does the entrepreneur or do the co-founders know what they don't know so that they're filling in the gaps? Those holes you talked about earlier with the right people around them in their leadership team. So I'm always looking for that. I'm looking for humble pie kind of entrepreneurs and ones that know say, look, this is not my expertise, but here's, you know, the person who does it. I love going to get back to the book. Later, Shovel First. Yes. This is a big one. And, you know, I have to, a subsection within this. And I have my Shovel that's, I had it with, but I had a page folded, but my Shovel is what I used to actually keep the baby, the bookmark, you know? So I'm telling you guys, buy for the Shovel, stay for the book, you know? Like, for some of the shovels. Yeah, yes. So it sounds obvious, but I'm going to let you guys, I mean, it's cool, right? If you're going to get the team, they got to see you show, not only need to do it first, it reminded me of kind of the analogy of like, CO and official mopper of the office, you know, kind of like, is that my making the right connection? I mean, that's what I took away from this analogy. I mean, we're talking startup world here. So if you want to get a group of people to jump and take a risk and work for you, when you have nothing but like, air, right, as promises, like, hey, we're going to make this a big company and you, you really are just selling them a story, right? You're selling them an outcome. You're selling them a feeling they get when they come into the office. Then you also have to make sure that you show up every day and you're no better than they are, right? You're a good leader. You're going to handle, you're going to make the tough decisions and you're going to be 100% transparent and you're going to lead by example. And that can be, you know, putting together mailing lists like we used to do in the old days, like everyone's stuff in envelopes or in our gop.com days, we'd ring a bell and everyone would start packing golf balls into packets or it's basically saying like, we're going to give back to this community and we want everyone to be a part of what we're doing because it's really incredible. So it's all about leader shoveling first. It's also a very different vision, I think, for leadership than maybe some younger entrepreneurs have. Too many of our companies that we work with, the founders treat them like democracies. And I don't know if everyone's noticing we're kind of pressure testing democracy as a model for government. Let me just tell you, it does not work at companies. Your job is to be the boss, not the buddy. You're benevolent dictator. You make the decisions, people want to be led with compassion, with clarity, with transparency, not by a dick, like just tone it down, listen to your people. But make decisions communicate why align everyone's interests correctly with financial incentives. And the rest take care of itself. If you're working for a company that has a leader that isn't leading, that just makes decisions based on the last person cheap spoke to or he spoke to, those are not going to feel like very empowered employees. And so it's really kind of look at yourself as a very nice dictator. You have the most to gain, but you have the most to lose. If it goes out of business, it's on you, if you run out of money, and you're not going to be worrying about, oh, I listened to this person and tried to make a decision that kind of threaded the needle between everyone wanted. And that gets so many companies turned around. I want to spend a moment here because I'll say this, I have failed more than I can count. I am not the best leader on the planet at all times, but I'll tell you the one mistake I haven't made in my 10 year journey. I'm not everybody's buddy. I'm not best friends with any, I like my employees and I want good people and I want there to become lottery and all that. That's the one thing I think I've figured out early on. This is just not going to be my best friend. It just does not work that way. And that's number one. So I related heavily to that Mike. And number two, we do live in this world where this generation in pre-COVID and post-COVID, I've struggled a bit with the employees that worked well under me pre-COVID and the ones post-COVID. A wife's like, totally. Used to be so good with employees. Not everybody doesn't like you. And I'm like, no, I haven't changed. But there's this sort of coddling in, you know, again, there's some fine lines here providing the benefits of work and making it feel comfortable and all that. And some of the amount of coddling maybe it's a fucking job, you know, like I don't know when that switch got. I agree with you. I don't know what I'm trying to say. You and I are going to be friends on this. And I think it, listen, I think COVID really did impact a lot of people. And it really changed how people work. It also changed people's perspectives. And I think somewhere along the way, probably, you know, result of, you know, helicopter parenting, right? You know, all of us wanting more for our kids, not letting them fail, right? You need to have really good, you have to have kids that can fail, right? In safe ways. So that they understand that they are resilient and can overcome failure. So you have that. Then you get, you know, COVID and then you have technology. And I think you're getting this, this collision of all these traits and producing people who, you know, they kind of want to work, but they don't want to work that hard. Right? And they need a lot of encouragement. And that's on top of like the previous generation that needed a lot of validation, right? That they were the greatest things in the world because somehow in our country, we give out trophies for second, third, and 50th place. I'll get you started on that one. Yeah. So well, cast second place is okay. Like that's silver metal in the Olympics. That's crazy. Second and third, I'm not saying you're happy with it, but let's still give like bronze medals just after that. Okay, I didn't, I'm not talking about the Olympics, but the cast is the most competitive person you're ever made. Oh, I like cast. Okay, you know, but, but I, I hear it. I hear what you're saying. I hear it. I felt your pain as well. And there's this kind of like, yeah, I'll do, I'll do what I can between these hours. And you know, we got to get back to wanting to show up and rise to occasions. That kind of mindset. I, it's struggle. I mean, I, it's real. And I have some good people now and I love them. And they do a good job. And not even in my current, I've, I've downscaled. I'm lean right now, baby. I'm lean and mean and fucking dangerous. Yeah. But you know, I've watched it, man. And that's why I was, you know, relating to these parts of the book or I'm just like, yeah. And I got to read this title. You couldn't attend every one of four kids games and practices like you do without having a team that is epic. I know your businesses and are very service and operations intensive. Yes. So the ship don't shovel itself at your businesses. Absolutely. A.I. It's just going to push a button and boop. I always mind. No, you're right. You're right. And so knowing how there are entrepreneurs who can't leave their desk. And that's not an entrepreneur. That's a job. Yes. You should be able to empower people, pay them well, communicate clearly the focus of the organization, what we're trying to accomplish, where we're going, what's most important. Give them the resources they need to do their job. And if they do it, that goes on the promotion list when you need to hire someone who's above them, right? So we have people who started as babysitters for us who ended up as senior people. One who's a senior executive at LinkedIn, Abby Lauder back. And we believe that like people do well, like care about their future. Too many entrepreneurs think it's all about money. Employees want to know that you care about them. And that means that you're thinking about what's next for them, what's the next step in your organization or outside the organization. And if you do that, they feel like they're seen. Yeah. It's good. Good points, Mike. And true. And I do. I've had a lot of good people. It's just that I felt that change that like it last. It's like, because I've gone through, you know, let me call it a space spade. 18 months ago, I kind of was just fried. Like I'd done the ad agency business. And you know, for others and myself, look, service business for 20 years straight, you know, it weighs on you. Like every conversation was weighing on me. Like, you know, because, you know, and service business, you only hear about what's bad, you know, like I only adventure the, how can I save the business calls, you know, or how are we going to land this plane calls? And I was just fried. So I kind of, I kind of indirectly stepped out of the business thinking it could kind of run itself. Yeah, that didn't work. I mean, when you think of, I mean, hopefully it's okay. I ask a question. But when you think of everything you've learned in the 10 years, like what are the cheat codes for you that you wish you'd done? All these cheat codes are just stuff we learned in the hard way, right? Yeah. Like, especially this one, Caswell admit, I'm not a born leader. I was an awful leader. I would wander the office. I would tell the engineers, hey, wouldn't it be cool? Like I would do everything you shouldn't do. But are there any cheat codes that you've picked up that you think that are like gold for you now? I mean, mine became more self-awareness as a leader and learning that is a different self-awareness than employee Ryan, you know, like even at the highest level. And I was a CMO and then, you know, the highest of big time agency, like it's, but still as a different self-awareness you have to have with your leader combined with I am a, I can be my opic. And here let me explain. I'm very flawed person like we all are. I know my flaws. I know them well. No one knows them more than me. But I'm very fucking driven. Very driven. I can't imagine someone not being driven like I am. And I used to think everybody was that way. Like they, we all had our different flavors of ice cream. But we started at a baseline that everybody's this way, right? This is the human nature. This is humanity. We are Americans. We're all driven to like just do incredible things or not subtle for average or whatever. And I just, I, even as an entrepreneur, I thought I worked my first four years thinking everybody was that way. So I just assumed that was the baseline. And then they had skills and specific things. But it was never in question that part. And learning that is not true. Especially education. Yeah, expectation. Unrealistic expectations. Yeah. Yeah, is number one thing. Yeah. I mean, I think what saved our marriage and our companies was kind of my self awareness journey. And I don't know if it's just guys. But like I mean, I kind of not teared up when Ryan's talking about like what he's gone through. You know, you expect everyone's the same. You look at, we all look at our positives. I could sell anything. I can do some stuff. But I'm not always present. I don't always care enough. I'm not always empathetic and how I deliver news. And I think one of the things that Cass has done and great leaders do is they just get better one percent every day. And like Cass now, when she lays someone off, it's the best day of their life. Like literally, I've seen this so many times. That's exact. They're like, no, they're like, I now know my strengths, my weaknesses. You see me, you know me. You're right. This isn't the right fit. If we like them, we'll help you get on your feet because it's just a fit thing, right? Whereas it took me a while to develop any sort of rapport that people would say positive things right after they came out of meetings with me. You know, Ryan, when you said that you thought everybody was just this driven, I related it exactly to the my thought. I thought everyone in the world was going to be as competitive as I was, or I am, and wanted to win as much as I did, right? Yeah. Oh, not lose. And that's been a lesson that I've had to learn over 30 years. And I think what helped me overcome that one was to really start concentrating on people's strengths and how they can be puzzle pieces to a great team, right? Yeah. And fit them. And then my expectations went down because we were using their strengths. Yeah. You know that yes. And I've gotten better at that. That summarizes the question that my guy asked me, like what that journey and things that I've learned, I mean, is kind of that. And and then if I can't, I've also learned, and then if I can't find the not that they don't have strengths, but can't find their strengths that are applicable to what we do, it's time to see them off, you know, and let get them somewhere where they are valued more. Or money ball them and put them in a different position. Yeah. Yeah. I love this right here. Don't shine the turd. Speak your bad habits. Oh, man. My wife, my wife would throw this one at me occasionally. You know, you can marketer. You tend to want to shine the turd. Yeah, lift it on the pig. Whatever you want to call it. It's exactly it. Like it's funny that there's this conflict between, you know, you're selling a story. So it's going to be a little bit more rosy than perhaps you know, it is at the time. But then don't shine the turd when it comes to, you know, x, y, and z, Mike used to have the tendency to tell a lot of, you know, tell things that were just more rosy than they were. And he learned it the hard way in a in a board call after we kind of read, you know, finance the company of golf.com and started it over. And our new board, just I can still remember it. He slammed his hand down on the speaker and was like, don't shine the turd. I listened. I mean, he was right. He was right. The sales sucked. It's just self-awareness. And I think you already have it, Ryan. I hope so. I'm, uh, I have worked on it very hard. I did not have it when I was 27, but I'm 47. And it's been a journey. What looks like success going forward? When you think about like when you put your head down at night, what does the future look like with which you are satisfied and happy? For me, I would only speak about me, but I really have my cup filled by helping people. So I often feel like less productive or just less me if I'm not giving. So if you said to me, like, why are you guys still investing in things? Because we want to give back as much as we can. We spent 18 years helping cycle for survival. And I think one big thing would be that there is no more cancer. And that Mike and I were like a small part of that through our network. They're being the first corporate team for cycle for survival. I would love that. That would be like boy, like, I don't know. It would just be such a joyous thing. And then touching as many entrepreneurs as we can. I mean, for me, it's like, I think it's simple. It's basically, I'm a capitalist, so I love business. I love the game. You somehow keep score with money. I'm not optimizing just for money, but we bought companies, cash flow businesses. We're investing. We just love it. And I think why we wrote this book is very simple. We want to get our experience and our ideas out there. And it's become a great platform. We're speaking to organizations where we've upleveled kind of who we're talking to and who's bringing us in. And a lot of it is, let's keep doing what we like to do. And if it feels good, let's keep doing it. And if we don't like it, we stop doing it while we take care of our health. Mike, Cass, this is felt like old friends talking and we're just getting to know one another. I can't be happy enough for I can't, you know, like, I thought about like the last, towards the end of the book, you talked about founder fear and like the fear of being an entrepreneur. And you know, I think as you leave a legacy, I think about like, if you can remove one ounce of fear from an entrepreneur to be or in the middle of it with this book, I think you'll sleep well at night because that's a job well done. And that's what it's shoveling shit. Well, just call it what it is with the upside down, the exclamation point, which is kind of what it is. It's like, yeah, that's what it is. Uh, buy it for the shovel. Stay for the content, baby. Thank you so much for coming on you. We appreciate it a lot. We're can everybody buy the book, learn more. Yeah, they go to shoveling shit.com and they'll see it there and we have tons of packages and extra bonuses if you just buy one book. So we're trying to help as many as we can. So send everybody that way straight to the site shoveling shit.com. Is that it? Yeah, that's it. I love that. More direct to the point. It's a master class and entrepreneurship and it will remove fear. I was it removed fear as I was reading it. I was reminding lessons I learned and learning things as they went. Uh, Cass and Mike, thank you again. Thank you. Hey guys, you know what to find us. Ryan is right.com. We'll have highlight clips, the full episode and all the links. It's easy to remember shoveling shit.com. Go there, baby. Get the book. I'm telling you it is the best book I've read in years. It is the master class in being an entrepreneur and doing it the right way. This has been right about now with Ryan Alfred, a Radcast Network production. Visit Ryanisright.com for full audio and video versions of the show or to inquire about sponsorship opportunities. Thanks for listening.